setup, and removal of your old set. when brands compete, you save. mattress price wars ends soon at sleep train. ♪ your ticket to a better night's sleep ♪ tomorrow night bill mauer joins me for the hour. he called president obama a liar. he has surprising things to say about ted cruz. that's all for us tonight, though. though. "ac 360 later" starts right now. -- captions by vitac -- www.vitac.com evening, everyone. welcome to "ac 360 later." tonight vice president hillary clinton or how about vice president candidate chris christie. how the oibz campaign considered the first and why the romney campaign considered and rejected the second. two of the inside details coming out from the tell all authors of "game change."

a sequel "double down" is not out until next week. we're getting early details that will have a lot of people talking. here to taw tonight, andrew sullivan of the dish. amy holmes anchor of the hot list and the blaze.com. senior legal analyst jeffrey toobin, former republican congressman rick lazio. i want to start with john martin of the "new york times" who broke the details. really fascinating details. talk about how the obama white house considered hillary clinton what they did about it. >> sure. this is the end of 2011. president obama's numbers were really bad at that point there. were a handful of his top aides trying to figure out a way forward. how can we be competitive in next year's re-election, win next year's re-election given the political predicament we're in. one of the options they looked at was replacing joe biden with hillary clinton on a ticket in 2012. >> when you say looked at it, polled a focus group? >> two things. the polling and focus groups,

asking voters how would you respond, for example, to hillary campaigning with president obama. those kinds of questions. the person advocating for is was chief of staff will ciam bailey. exploring the research. >> did the research focus show? >> it would help but not sufficiently to make that bold of a move. there was an imagine that will benefit to doing it but it wasn't sufficient. what they don't know in this book and what daly wasn't sure op when i talked to him today on the phone is if president obama knew. >> another thing he didn't know. >> that's right. >> he would have just read about it in the newspaper. >> also for chris christie, the newspaper on that was -- >> twice considered, twice scratched off. he was on the original short list for romney in 2012, then

romney was leaning towards paul ryan. at the last minute one of romney's top advisers really urged him to reconsider kristi. stewart stephens who some of the viewers know was romney's chief strategist was bombarding around with youtube clips showing kristi at his best. romney did reconsider. they did a sort of crash event as they call it, last minute info trying to compile a dossier on kristi. they ultimately could not get enough info on krischris chris kristi. and romney wasn't comfortable i think taking that gamble given what had happened four years earlier with mccain picking sarah palin. >> is there something in chris christie's background that led them to believe there was a problem? i mean my understanding of chris christie, he's been a prosecutor for much of his life. those aren't the kind of jobs that generally create vetting problems. >> well, the phrase they used in the book is really potential

unexploded land mines lirting his background. now, there's no proof that any of that stuff would have ultimately been harmful to the campaign. it was just the fact there were unanswered questions. unlike the other potential -- >> by unanswered you mean he failed to answer those questions adequately. >> exactly. unlike the other possible v.p.s they were vetting they did not get the level of info from chris christie they wanted. there's a memo in this book from the vetting team they quote at length where they run down the issues where they have knocked out enough background on chris christie. they say in bold letters in this memo, if he's the pick, have to find more on x, have to find more on y. so i think romney was worried about a scenario where you pick chris christie and all those questions are raised in the weeks after the rollout. >> fred myers who headed this up former chief of staff. >> your friend. >> incredibly methodical.

each of the potential short list people had their own vetting team so that there was no taint going from one to the other. and i think in the end, my sense was that of course ryan ended up getting picked but rob portman senator from ohio was the runner-up. >> very fast today i talked to the chris christie folks about this issue, instead of responding they actually arranged beth myers herself to e-mail me and use that as their response. which to me speaks to the establishment wing of that party's respect, perhaps fear of chris christie that they could get beth myers to stand up for chris christie to do that. >> i want to bring in candy crowley, does it surprise you that they would poll test, focus group hillary clinton as potential v.p. over biden? >> reporter: no. the way focus groups and poll testing goes, it's everything.

do people respond better to this color. obviously you're spending money on this so it was something that was considered at some level. but i wanted to point out a tweet from david pleth tonight, the 2008 obama campaign manager, in the white house in 2011. he said never any consideration of a v.p. hrc switch. not even entertained by the only person who mattered or most of us. back to hallowe'en. >> according to the book, pleth himself was part of a small group that was aware of this going on. again it's not that they were looking to dump biden. they wanted to do due diligence in exploring what hillary would get them politically. >> what were the health issues with chris christie? as i understand they were worried about some undisclosed or failure to disclose fully a health record? >> he didn't disclose that he's

overweight. [ laughter ] >> no, i think they wanted more details. sort of full rundown, full physical examination. and it seems like from my reporting they hadn't gotten that. >> the protesting and focus grouping wouldn't have told them, i don't think, unless you have more information on this, is if dumping joe biden in and of itself would have been seen as weakness. as a jimmy carter moment for president obama. and also on the chris christie stuff, not disclosing, that also plays into chris christie being kind of a loose cannon and not a team player. so was it interpreted that way as well? >> yes. at the staff level in the book it's very clear that the romney folks were unhappy with the level of information coming from the chris christie people in trenton, new jersey, and that there was a sort of press for more and more and more. they just were not getting it. >> what i find fascinating on this, anderson, chris christie and clinton might very well be the two nominees next time

around. both were considered for veep and decided against. and it just shows you that some of the assumptions about them being great successes, i'm not so sure. >> there's also a lot of stuff about president obama's relationship with former president bill clinton. >> strained. >> yes. but came around on it seems olympic. >> sort of a love story in the end, right. >> love story. >> president obama as you guys know, is so different in terms of his style from president clinton. there's this great scene in the book where they're here in new york and they're pulling up to a fundraiser, i think at the waldorf, they're in the limo and president clinton is telling a story to president obama. it's like one of those moments where, hold on. and he's coming to a punch line. for obama it's just like reaching for the door to get out. and it is so hard for obama at that point. at that dinner i guess an hour or so later in the waldorf, obama calls in staffers from both his office and clinton's

office to give him some cover so he doesn't have to have dinner with clinton 101. >> be trapped alone with him. >> couldn't be more different. >> certainly president obama did seem to come around on president clinton and really believe he needed him. >> yes. he proved helpful in getting him re-elected. there's nothing like helpfulness in getting re-elected to bond a couple of people. we've seen it with reagan and bush. we've seen it with dole and bush. history is sort of littered with politicians who hated each other and then realized they needed each other. i think that pretty much describes these two. >> in jonathan's story about the book, when obama gets the call from mitt romney conceding the election, his first call afterwards to say thank you is to bill clinton. >> he turns to his assistant and says get bill on the phone. >> that speech at that convention was the most important speech. if you talk to democratic

activists they will talk to this speech. >> as a politician, what do you make of this dumping this into a book and we're still not even done with the first year of obama's presidency? >> it's the era you live in, right? so that everything is out there. there's very little sense anymore even among people currently in office to maintain some confidentialality and not leak things out. >> the story president obama doesn't know the name of his top five bundlers? >> to push it away from themselves, not my liability, somebody else's liability. [ overlapping speakers ] >> isn't that part of what obama said he was going to do? he was not going to be one of those people who was constantly doing favors. clinton is a transactional politician. obama is so not like that. if you've ever been cornered by

bill clinton, i know just stuck on the running machine right next to him. he won't stop. he will not stop talking to you. >> you mean he goes to the gym? >> now i think he does. >> i wouldn't mind someone talking to me on the running machine. i'm so bored out of my mind. >> you try it for a few minutes with him. >> one time i remember going to the middle east as part of a delegation, and he was on the air force one we were going over there and he came over and i was beat. we got up really early. he was sitting there with his unlit cigar. he came up and was just talking to us. i said how do i summon up the courage to tell the president of the united states i'm tired could you go away? i love talking policy but i'm done. >> that's what you ultimately do. >> clinton himself had his issues with obama. a scene in the book where clinton is in little rock and i think it's the 20th anniversary commemoration of clinton announcing his candidacy for

president. clinton is going to everybody at the party dumbfounded why isn't obama better at this stuff? he's good at the hard stuff but bad at the easy stuff is clinton's line. >> it's easy for clinton. >> it's like why can't he put it on an index card in bullet point messages. >> he said he wanted to be a transformative president like ronald reagan and not play favors like bill clinton. >> your famous cover story in the '08 campaign was goodbye to all that. that was obama as the sort of clean break from all the baby boomer narcissism of 1990s. and obama embraced that by the way in his campaign. >> candy, do you have any sense of what kind of relationship they have now? do they talk on the phone? does president obama do that kind of stuff? are, i don't think they're bffs, no. we found out i think about the time that hillary clinton left the white house. by the way, he has a better relationship with her than he does with her husband.

but the fact is when she left that was about the time we found out that they had never -- that michelle and barack obama had never had the clintons to the white house forks hey, hang out and have some dinner. you'd think that would be sort of natural. it was a long time before president obama ever called president clinton for advice. it was 2008 was pretty raw between the two of them. >> isn't that remarkable, candy, the real story is that the obama-clinton reconciliation in that campaign? there have been many bitter primary campaigns in which they have not pulled together at the end for this party. the obama-hillary clinton unity in that campaign was really staggering it seems to me. >> reporter: yeah, i don't know. i think i'm more cynical than you are. i figure a politician looks around and says this guy can help me. so he's my buddy. so no, that doesn't surprise me. i will say in terms of chris christie when you all were talking about chris christie and hillary clinton who maybe up

against one another in 2016, i don't think there are probably any two happier people tonight they were not on either of those tickets at this point, given where the president is in the polling, the kind of challenges he's looking at. i'm sure she's happy to be looking from the outside in i think chris christie is, too. >> candy, it's great to have you on the program. thank you very much. jonathan martin as well. thanks, fascinating stuff. let me know what you think. follow me on twitting. up next, congressional republicans complaining about not getting answers they want about the deadly attack in benghazi may be hearing from more people on the ground during the attack. we'll be back with that. [ male announcer ] at humana, understanding what makes you different is what makes us different. we take the time to get to know you

and your unique health needs. then we help create a personalized healthcare experience that works for you. and you. and you. with 50 years of know-how, and a dedicated network of doctors, health coaches, and wellness experts, we're a partner you can rely on -- today, and tomorrow. we're going beyond insurance to become your partner in health. humana. to become your partner in health. explaining my moderate to severe so there i was again, chronic plaque psoriasis to another new stylist. it was a total embarrassment. and not the kind of attention i wanted. so i had a serious talk with my dermatologist about my treatment options. this time, she prescribed humira-adalimumab. humira helps to clear the surface of my skin by actually working inside my body. in clinical trials, most adults with moderate to severe plaque psoriasis saw 75% skin clearance. and the majority of people were clear or almost clear in just 4 months. humira can lower your ability to fight infections, including tuberculosis.

serious, sometimes fatal events, such as infections, lymphoma, or other types of cancer have happened. blood, liver and nervous system problems, serious allergic reactions, and new or worsening heart failure have occurred. before starting humira, your doctor should test you for tb. ask your doctor if you live in or have been to a region where certain fungal infections are common. tell your doctor if you have had tb, hepatitis b, are prone to infections, or have symptoms such as fever, fatigue, cough, or sores. you should not start humira if you have any kind of infection. make the most of every moment. ask your dermatologist about humira, today. clearer skin is possible. medicare part d plan did you know that if you enroll in a where walmart is a preferred pharmacy, you could save up to 80% on your co-pays over other pharmacies? this could lower your prescription co-pays to as low as a dollar so you can enjoy the things that really matter. and now that we're a preferred pharmacy for many national plans, it's never been easier to save. choose any plan where walmart is a preferred pharmacy provider

by logging on to walmart.com/rxplans now through december 7th. save money. live better. walmart.

congressional republicans may soon get some of the testimony they've been demanding more than a year after the terrorist attacks that killed four americans in the benghazi consulate in libya. a house intelligence subcommittee is scheduled to hear from other cia security officers and former marines expected to give more testimony on benghazi. back with me my panel. what do you make of jeff i know you have strong feelings on the reporting on benghazi. >> this is a nonstory. benghazi was a tragedy. it's not a scandal. republicans are going to

investigate this until the end of the obama administration. they will find nothing because there's nothing to be found there. there's no scandal. these are brave, honorable people who were killed in the line of duty just like foreign service officers and cia officers have been killed in the line of duty before. there is nothing there. in terms of a scandal. but republicans can continue doing this as long as they want. >> so susan rice saying that there was links to the videos to you -- >> it was in the immediate aftermath it was unclear what happened. they corrected their statements within a day. >> they didn't though, jeffrey. president obama went to the u.n. and he gave a speech saying that this was about a youtube video almost attacking free speech, frankly, saying that as the united states we will not stand for this sort of insult to islam. he said this two weeks after it was well-known thought was a planned coordinated terrorist attack. >> explain to me -- >> had nothing to do with the

youtube video. >> what is the scandal here? that just fight all these investigations? >> so let me say three reasons why i think it matters. number one for the first time in 30 years, american diplomats were killed on diplomatic soil, on u.s. soil. number one. number two, it matters for people that are going into the diplomatic corps and whether or not they trust their nation when there's information that they could be at serious risk as the ambassador had communicated whether or not we took precautions to actually address that. whether we could execute on it. next, once there was a fire fight and we knew there was lots of reasons why this was predictable that we were going to be at siege at that particular compound -- >> on 9/11. >> -- and we were advised either by the principal consultant to that embassy after the united kingdom embassy had been attack the as predicted and called for by al qaeda that we should either move the location or beef up security. that was ignored. then once we were under fire and

it was over an hour before they found out nobody was coming of course the fire fight ended several hours later when in fact there might have been some cover and some lives could have been saved. >> and the entire reason that the republicans have been pursuing this is to implicate hillary clinton and barack obama. so wait a second. so your complaint is that there weren't reinforcements sent quickly enough. did hillary clinton not send those reinforcements? did barack obama? >> we don't know. >> you don't know. that is the thing. [ overlapping speakers ] >> we still don't know what the president was doing that night. he won't release that information. and when you say there's nothing there, then why aren't these witnesses being allowed to speak to congress? why does lindsey graham have to threaten he's going to block these appointments just to talk to people that our intelligence commitee has a right and a duty to interview? >> republicans block appointments as matters of general principle.

>> they also hold top secret -- >> the perfectly qualified nominee for the federal circuit patricia mill let was denied a vote because republicans wouldn't give her a vote. lindsey graham doesn't need an excuse to block obama's appointees. >> why won't the cia let these people speak to our elected representatives who need to get to the bottom of this and have that responsibility and duty and have top secret meetings all the time? >> one argument they're making while there's going to be a criminal investigation going on it could interfere with that. i talked to a cia officer earlier tonight who said that's ridiculous. that as a former undercover cia officer he used to testify all the time and his cover wasn't blown. >> do we believe that diane feinstein is incapable of holding a secret interrogation, an interview of these folks? >> there have already been two major investigations, all of which have shown no conspiracy. if republicans want to spend their time. >> you're using the word conspiracy, i'm not. i'm talking about getting all

the facts. >> we don't know all the facts about the civil war. if you want all the facts about something you're never going to get >> it this happened two years ago versus the civil war. >> you're looking for some sort of smoking gun to implicate the president and hillary clinton. and there's nothing there. >> so here's where i think they have it wrong, though, the administration. so you're talking about a closed door, closed to the press, top secret briefing by the intelligence committee. nobody's going to grandstand. >> no. not a chance. >> there's no cameras there. there's no ability to grandstand in a closed door -- >> i see no reason why these hearings shouldn't go on forever as far as i'm concerned if that's what the republicans think is doing. but i cannot see where on earth this ends. i cannot see the huge scandal ready to be unveiled. i do understand the passion around this that has been generated among republicans. i think only republicans will be

interested. and i think increasingly a lot of independents -- >> that's a shame. that's a shame. >> well, no. because they seem completely deranged about this. >> excuse me. two of the parents of these murdered men have said that they do implicate the white house because the president's duty is also as commander in chief. and to have that duty in terms of do we send in military support for these folks or do we just let them die on a rooftop because it's 9/11 and we don't want to start a regional war? >> and the republican investigations of the 13 attacks on american embassies under the george w. bush administration? how did those go? >> i'm glad they had these investigations. >> they didn't have them. there were none. >> there were no diplomats killed on these attacks. our ambassador was murdered. i think that is well established. >> of course it was, yeah. >> wait a minute. weren't cia operatives and navy s.e.a.l.s at least cia operatives killed in eastern

afghanistan, blown up? it was shown in the movie the hunt for bin laden. >> certainly. >> on a u.s. forward operating base. >> i'd like to know what the cia was doing in benghazi. i'd like an investigation. i'd like an investigation into the cia's war crimes. a much more serious matter. that the head of the cia destroyed the evidence of their torturing. destroyed it. [ overlapping speakers ] >> what responsibility do you believe that president obama has to make this information available to you to satisfy your curiosity? what was going on in benghazi thought was under attack? >> i'm not curious about it. i'm not. >> possibility allegations of arm straight upping. you just said you want to know about it. >> i do. it's part of the process. republicans can investigate all they want. i just don't know what you're doing it for. >> listen, if nothing new comes

out of it it's not going to move political needle if that's what we're concerned about. not what most republicans are concerned about. >> you don't believe politics are at the core of this. you think it's concern about what happened to those four americans and fixing the problem. >> i think many republicans feel it was a humongous failure in intelligence and more importantly in execution. >> you don't see them using this as a cudgle against hillary clinton? >> i wish they hadn't used it for fundraising and such much i think that distracts from the principle issues are here. why would they use it for fundraising? >> you find people on both sides. >> specifically on this side. >> i wish they hadn't done it. >> it speaks to their motivation does it not? >> my point is if you have these additional questions, if the administration and the cia makes these people available, if they don't have to be subpoenaed, if they don't have to be compelled

to speak in a confidential, closed door national security briefing where lots of incredible secrets have been told, then if they allow them to speak and there's no new information i don't think it's going to go anywhere more. so why go through the effort of stone walling them? >> why the stone walling? >> tell me who's stone walling what? >> that the cia operatives who were actually on the ground, undercover cia operatives, the allegation was they -- >> that they had been prevented somehow from testifying. i have not seen a single piece of evidence that proves that. >> you have the complaint they're not allowed to testify, they're not allowed to come in. >> who's complaining? >> we just discussed lindsey graham is threatening he's going to put a block to the nomination. >> seems like they are now going to be testifying. >> why is there no bounty on the heads of the terrorists that killed these four men? another question the state department can't answer. >> you would ask precisely to compel this rancid lie that

somehow the president of the united states -- >> we want to catch these terrorists. >> i find the insinuation behind that really vile. >> you may. >> the insinuation. it's vile because to accuse the president of being essentially in league with al qaeda and indifferent to his own ambassador and our staff is such a vile accusation. the insinuation. and just asking questions about that. >> i think it is vile to blame an innocent american who made a youtube video for what we know was an organized terror attack. >> it was a mistake. >> a mistake that was repeated over and over at length and by the president of the united states to the world community. >> the world was denied -- there was a political price paid for that for susan rice. >> she got a promotion. are you kidding me? >> she was supposed to be secretary of state, amy. >> so she says. john kerry has a different idea. >> the real agenda here is to

insinuate this president is somehow a traitor to his country. you know that's what's going on. >> i totally reject that. i think that's not what the case is. that may be how the left wants to define it. i'm saying they think that people with all good faith are trying to get to the bottom of this, ask the right questions and to be able to lay this out. who has been held accountable in the state department for this? has anybody? >> a whole bunch of people have been fired. >> nobody's been fired. not one person. nobody has been fired. >> demoted. >> not one person has been fired for this catastrophe on basically u.s. soil. >> you might have my sympathy on that. >> in terms of accountability to me that's an outrage. >> we got to end it here. up next, support for the death penalty is at its lowest level in four decades. we'll take that up with the panel. join us all together when "ac 360 later" continues. my customers can shop around.

but it doesn't usually work that way with health care. with unitedhealthcare, i get information on quality rated doctors, treatment options and cost estimates, so we can make better health decisions. that's health in numbers. unitedhealthcare. one more time, just for themselves. before the last grandchild. before the first grandchild. smile. before katie, debbie, kevin and brad... there was a connection that started it all and made the future the wonderful thing it turned out to be... at bank of america, we know we're not the center of your life, but we'll do our best to help you connect to what is.

i'm on expert on softball. and tea parties. i'll have more awkward conversations than i'm equipped for, because i'm raising two girls on my own. i'll worry about the economy more than a few times before they're grown. but it's for them, so i've found a way. who matters most to you says the most about you. at massmutual we're owned by our policyowners, and they matter most to us. ready to plan for your future? we'll help you get there.

these are the hands a pediatrician. these are pioneering advances in heart surgery. and these are developing groundbreaking treatments for cancer. they're the hands of the nation's top doctors. kaiser permanente doctors. and though they are all different, they work together on a single mission: saving lives. discover how we are advancing medicine at kp.org join us, and thrive.

welcome to "ac 360 later." on the table right now the death penalty. support is at its low elf level since 1972. 35% say they are opposed. it's seen a gradual decline since then. we're back with our panel. jeff, you're legal analyst. do you support the death penalty? >> i don't, although i have in the past. it's a good thing i'm not

running for office because a big flip-flopper on this. but this is really one of the big stories in american life. part of it is the public. but it's also in the legal system, the number of prosecutors asking for the death penalty, the number of death penalty verdicts from juries, the number of executions have all been dropping dramatically. >> why asking for it less? because of the length of time involved? >> in part. expense is enormous. but they are reacting to juries. it all stems from two things. crime is down in this country. one of the great social science mysteries of the past 20 years is why is crime down so much. here in new york it's most dramatic but all over the country it's been going down. the other thing is dna evidence in the exonerations because of dna and the tremendous work the innocence project and other lawyers have done to show how imperfect our legal system is. that translates directly into jurors saying, you know, we're

just not sure enough to impose the death penalty as much as we have in the past. and you take those two things, just fewer murders to prosecute and more reluctant jurors and you have a really dramatic change in how the public -- in how death penalty is used. >> do you think that continues? >> it seems to me that it depends on the types of crime that you're talking about. if you're talking about a sandy hook or situation where there's mass murderer, children involved, terrorist inspired activity, my guess is that you'll continue to see pretty strong support. even not that our legal system should reflect public opinion but obviously people still a ma yoert of americans still do believe that there are some exceptional circumstances, some particular class of murderers, the worst of the worst where it's such an outrage against society that the death penalty

is appropriate. >> i grew up in the land of serial killers in seattle where we had ted bundy, the green river killer. so i am pro death penalty in those extreme sorts of cases. but i agree with the dna advancements an the good work of the innocence project that americans are seeing that innocent people are put into death row. a question i have, jeffrey, maybe you note answer to this. interestingly california by far has the most people on death row. i looked it up. they have 731. but they have no executions. they don't execute their prisoners. >> it's a completely preposterous situation in california. since the death penalty came back after the moratorium in 1976, they have executed i believe fewer than ten people. and they have 700 people on death row. basically the system is at complete loggerheads. the legal system cannot process those appeals. and they don't have the resources, they don't have the time. so these people sit on death row even though everyone knows that the vast vast majority of them

will never be executed. i think at some point california being the more liberal state that it is will probably just either through the electorate or through a governor say we're going to just put all these people on life without parole. >> isn't it interesting how things which were once considered complete air tight evidence against somebody are now sort of being viewed as junk science. was it you who wrote about that at the new yorker? >> no, it was david grand my colleague. >> arson investigation. >> arson investigation. that's why dna has been such a service. because dna is good science. dna is science that came from the laboratory into the courtroom. arson investigators, hair and fiber analysis, handwriting analysis, eyewitness testimony, we're discovering how flawed all of these things are. false confessions. and that's why i think jurors are starting to say, look, we just don't want to take the risk of executing the wrong person.

>> and dna has been an incredibly powerful tool for prosecutors. but keep in mind that's only really relevant in cases where for example there are some sample left behind. so you have a shooting, for example, with no casing, nothing to actually identify. >> we've come a long way since bill clinton rushed from his campaign to preside over the execution of a mentally challenged african-american man to prove his bona fides against crime. i think all the factors that jeff has pointed out are absolutely true. for me i have to say, i find it hard to talk about this politically or even legally. i think of it morally. and i find the power of the state deciding that someone is beyond redemption and should be murdered to be for me at least this comes from my faith, of course, wrong. just wrong. we cannot -- we cannot take someone's life. we cannot deny that person the possibility of redemption.

>> this is where i don't really understand -- i appreciate it, but why is it okay to take somebody somebody out on some terrorist battle field, some drone strike with no process, no fact finding? why is that okay morally but having a full airing, vetting, a trial, jury of peers, conviction, evaluation of the issues afterwards in terms of sentencing -- >> and appeals process. >> and appeals process. >> in catholic teaching it would be this. there are situations when war is just, and in those situations which are very constrained on the catholic moral teaching, you can commit murder in warfare. you're not talking about an enemy of the state you're fighting as opposed to a citizen in your own polity over which

you have total power. when you've already got someone lock away forever, when they can't do any harm to anybody else, then the death penalty becomes, i think, a form of vengeance. and i know -- i can totally understand why the victims of crime, the family of victims, would feel this way. >> why the community feels this way. >> why the community feels that way. i really do, obviously. at the same time, i think we're less a country if we do it. >> we actually got to take a quick break. we're going to switch gears completely get you ready. here's a question to think about. is a 9-year-old opera phenomenon who taught herself to think proof that incredible talent is innate or something that can be learned? i'll talk about that next. [ male announcer] surprise -- you're having triplets.

[ babies crying ] surprise -- your house was built on an ancient burial ground. [ ghosts moaning ] surprise -- your car needs a new transmission. [ coyote howls ] how about no more surprises? now you can get all the online trading tools you need without any surprise fees. ♪ it's not rocket science. it's just common sense. from td ameritrade.

add brand new belongings from nationwide insurance and we'll replace stolen or destroyed items with brand-new versions. we put members first. join the nation. ♪ nationwide is on your side ♪

welcome back. you may have seen this. if not you should. a 9-year-old girl blew everyone away on the recent performance of "holland's got talent." i didn't know there was such a show. i didn't know there were enough people in holland. >> brutal. >> not brutal. to fund a show? >> a proud and strong country. >> i'm from there originally i think. no one not the judge or audience was expecting this.

it's incredible. take a look. not saying they don't have talent. just saying how many singers are there. ♪ >> that was incredible. from the puccini opera. 9-year-old voice is amazing. she says she taught herself to sing by watching youtube tutorials. no formal voice training. is talent something that you're born with or can it be taught? the panel is back with us. i want to bring in daniel coyle the author of "talent isn't great it's grown." daniel thanks for being with us. it is something that's innate a natural talent or through practice, through rehearsal you

actually can develop? >> it looks natural, doesn't it? it gives you chills. but in fact when you look closely, she illustrates a couple of really powerful things about the way talent is grown. the first is she grew up with this windshield. she was immersed in music. father a musician, brother, mother. the second thing is she practiced. that method of practicing by training yourself on youtube is actually perfectly aligned with the way the brain acquires skills. by reaching toward something and by loving it so much that you keep reaching over and over again. and you grow a very fast, fluent brain that way. >> i'm reminded of malcolm gladwell in "the outliars" write be about the beatles who spent 10,000 hours in the club in hamburg and elsewhere, performing for six hours in a row, seven hours in the row. sort of the crucible that formed them. do you buy that whether it's 10,000-hour rule? or is there something to that in your opinion, daniel? >> absolutely there is. the difference really is in the

quality of the practice. when you picture this little girl staring at an image of something she loves, you can see that musical identity in her, that love that's driving her. and when she reaches for that over and over again it changes your brain. there are brain scans that will show the way the brains will change in response to intensive practice. they get faster, more accurate and you get better at whatever you're doing. whether playing the beatles or singing. >> daniel, what's the difference between someone who works 10,000 hours and becomes a genius and someone who works 10,000 hours and just doesn't turn out to be that great? >> yeah, well, sometimes it's opportunity. genes do matter. genes do change the way we have especially when it comes to character, emotional discipline, control, things like that, toughness. but in the end what we do know is that everybody has the same path forward. no matter who you are, if you practice intensively, if you find something that really connects to your identity and you reach for it over and over again you're building yourself that talent. >> so your advice for parents

out there is what, expose their kids to the widest range of things possible and see what sticks? >> yeah. i'd say a couple of things. one is to not be so much like a tiger parent. be more like a johnny apple seed parent. three stuff out there and see what your kid stares at. to stare is to think. it's the most important signal our kids give us. the other thing is to give them a little bit of space to discover what it is that really connects to them. >> what i love about the whole practice argument, it kind of defies our idea that we can control our lives instantly, that we can just change everything. the most great human excellence, you see this in aristotle forward. we aren't just creatures of habit. our character is what we are used to doing. and what we do makes us different people. and pasquall was interesting. if you do the right thing every

day it will become second nature to you. that second nature is what we need to get. the rationalist brain our culture doesn't want to really believe that. it wants to believe everything can be changed overnight or you can learn something instantly. it doesn't want to believe that things require practice and practice and practice. that includes also i must say even politics and other forms of life where we think we can ideal logically, abstract terms change everything but we can't. >> certainly it seems to make common sense that things take practice. but i listen to all this and i hear a lot of pressure. these kids being told you can become a genius. you can sing like this opera angel on this holland talent show if you just stare at youtube enough? >> i think when i look at like ""american idol"" i see all these people who have no talent and a lot of them do. but a lot of them have never been told, you know what, you're actually not very good. it's the first time somebody actually says to them -- they've

been coddled all their life by their parents saying you're fantastic when they're not. >> i think people have that spark in them or they don't. i'm a big golf fan. tiger woods has often been accused of having his father push and push and push him to play golf all the time. and what tiger has always said is, you up don't understand. i pushed him. i wanted to be a great golfer. i wanted to practice all the time. and that's something that you can't teach. you either do or you don't want to do it. >> well, you can't teach it, jeff. but you can make it more likely by filling the windshield. think about the environment that little girl who sang grew up in. every day watching her father a professional organist play, her mother play, her brother who's quite good at the violin play. who we stare at determines who we become. if we fill our windshield with those people that ignites. we know how the circulatory system works and respiratory works. our motivational system works by staring at someone we want to become. >> daniel, great to have you on

the program. fascinating stuff. up next stories you may or may not have heard. i'll ask the panel next what's your story. ♪ man: [ laughs ] those look like baby steps now. but they were some pretty good moves. and the best move of all? having the right partner at my side. it's so much better that way. [ male announcer ] have the right partner at your side. consider an aarp medicare supplement insurance plan, insured by unitedhealthcare insurance company. go long. insured by unitedhealthcare insurance company. so i can reach ally bank 24/7, but there ar24/7.branches? i'm sorry, i'm just really reluctant to try new things. really? what's wrong with trying new things? look! mommy's new vacuum! (cat screech) you feel that in your muscles? i do... drink water.

it's a long story. well, not having branches let's us give you great rates and service. i'd like that. a new way to bank. a better way to save. ally bank. your money needs an ally. maestro of project management. baron of the build-out. you need a permit... to be this awesome. and you...rent from national. because only national lets you choose any car in the aisle... and go. you can even take a full-size or above, and still pay the mid-size price. (aaron) purrrfect. (vo) meee-ow, business pro. meee-ow. go national. go like a pro.

the deep sweep power brush by oral-b for the first time. wow. it's "wow," you know? wow. wow. that feels "wow." [ male announcer ] oral-b deep sweep, featuring 3 cleaning zones with dynamic power bristles that reach deep between teeth to remove up to 100% more plaque than a regular manual brush. it seems like it gets more to areas of your mouth that you can't reach with a regular toothbrush. [ male announcer ] guaranteed "wow" with deep sweep from oral-b. #1 dentist-recommended toothbrush brand worldwide.

welcome back. time for what's your story where the panel shares a story that caught their eye. this is a sad story i saw on tollroad.com originally. a tumbler, amazing gymnast from pocatello, idaho is paralyzed. had a tumbling accident during a demonstration during practice and is apparently having trouble with his insurance. a go funding page is set up to try to help him pay medical bills. getting feeling back in his toes but he cannot walk. we certainly wish him the best. andrew what's your story? >> australia has just discovered that it has almost as much oil reserves as saudi arabia. an amazing new shale oil discovery. >> that's amazing. >> i'd much rather import oil

from australia than saudi arabia. >> here here. cory booker sworn in today in the united states senate. it was great and uplifting so t see that happened. i worked with the former majority leader. i texted him to see if he has any words of advice for mr. booker. he said listen carefully and engage graciously. i think a lot of voters would appreciate that. >> jeffrey? >> the court of appeals here in new york threw out the judge who in the stop and frisk case. the judge who ruled that stop and frisk was unconstitutional here in new york. and the court of appeals took her off the case in part because of the interview she gave to me in "the new yorker" it was an absolutely outrageous ruling by the second circuit. she did nothing wrong. >> we're out of time. we'll have to get yours next, congressman. thanks to the panel. that does it for "ac 360 later." we'll see you later. "black fish" is up next. in the nation, we know how you feel about your car.

so when coverage really counts, count on nationwide insurance. because what's precious to you is precious to us. ♪ love, love is strange just another way we put members first. because we don't have shareholders. join the nation. ♪ baby... ♪ nationwide is on your side ♪ i got this. [thinking] is it that time? the son picks up the check? [thinking] i'm still working. he's retired. i hope he's saving. i hope he saved enough. who matters most to you says the most about you. at massmutual we're owned by our policyowners, and they matter most to us. whether you're just starting your 401(k)

or you are ready for retirement, we'll help you get there. at any minute... ...you could be a victim of fraud. most people don't even know it. fraud could mean lower credit scores... ...and higher interest rates when you apply for a credit card. it's a problem waiting to happen. check your credit score, check your credit report, at experian.com. america's number one provider of online credit reports and scores.

don't take chances. go to experian.com. is ask these are the hands a pediatrician. these are pioneering advances in heart surgery. and these are developing groundbreaking treatments for cancer. they're the hands of the nation's top doctors. kaiser permanente doctors. and though they are all different, they work together on a single mission: saving lives. discover how we are advancing medicine at kp.org

join us, and thrive.